Morgan 0:00:00
From boardroom meetings to bedtime stories, Coffee in the Barn explores the delicate dance of balancing the demands of our professional lives with the joys and responsibilities of being moms. Join us each week as we discuss the latest trends in agribusiness, share insightful interviews with industry experts, and sprinkle in some heartfelt anecdotes about the humorous and heartwarming moments that come with being a working mom in agriculture. This week we have Kristen Hicks-Roof with the National Pork Board to discuss about pushing kids to healthier eating habits as well as how pork is such a powerful protein source to include on your plate.
Casey 0:00:46
Or your bowl.
Morgan
0:00:47
Or your bowl. Well, thank you for joining us.
Kristen
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to dive deeper and really talk about this. As a mother of three, I think it's important how we expose our kids and support our kids to developing their eating patterns. And pork is one way that we can help have some of those exposure points. So excited to dive a little bit deeper into the content.
Morgan
So I don't know about you, but the only pork, not necessarily that I can get my kids to eat, is sausage and bacon are probably the top two. But what are some of, besides like pork chop, what are some of the other, I guess, go-to pork options that you serve your family?
Kristen
0:01:30
Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the coolest parts about pork is just its versatility, right? Is, you know, people think center of the plate. Well, food is not always center of the plate, especially with children. With children, it's so important for exposure in different ways. And so when it comes to pork, I think every way that you serve it should be different, just like with every other food. You wouldn't want to eat the same food every day or the same way you prepare it or the same seasonings, and children don't either. And so some of my favorite like with my kids and obviously it's a day-to-day thing, right? Like sometimes I can serve the same food and one day they love it and the next day they don't. But we love like doing some shredded pork like carnitas or my husband has a smoker and so like yesterday we had some smoked pork and we had like an apple, an apple slaw on top of it and they were like little sandwiches and it was amazing. Both my kids ate the whole sandwich. It was so cool. And so I think sometimes shredded pork, sometimes it is more of a, either it's sliced meat or sometimes it's chunked meat. Like I said, every different way you serve it can have different implications. And then one of our other ways that we really like to serve pork is just ground pork. Ground pork's super versatile. I can swap it in and out with other proteins or sometimes I'll do a half and half one. Like if I'm making spaghetti or burgers or meatloaf or meatballs, I mean, you name it. Or even like a stir fry, sometimes I'll do half beef or half pork or all pork or yeah, a whole mix of what it might be.
0:03:13
And yeah, I think it's just important that when you are working with kids, I mean, I'm a dietitian. I talk a lot. I work a lot with kids. I give a lot of presentations about helping people with their kids and picky eating. And it's really just exposure. You're never going to get it right on the first time. Sometimes, I guess, maybe one in a million.
1
0:03:36
But the more often we can expose to the variety of ways that pork can be cooked, just like we like variety as adults.
Casey
I never knew what real beef hamburger tasted like until I was older because our hamburger was always venison mixed with the pork because we wanted a little bit of the fat to come in with the pork for the venison. That was what I grew up on as my hamburger. But I also feel like today it's exciting the options we have to feed our children. Because I grew up in a very, I guess, rural family, German, English background. It was pork roast, it was pork chops, and my dad and I would try to infuse different ingredients. But now with YouTube and recipes and, you know, a mom saving all these recipes, is I think it's the time for pork to really become that staple protein because of the infusion of different, I guess, cooking techniques and cultures into our food.
Morgan
0:04:42
Oh, yeah. And I mean, you see it all over TikTok.
Kristen
0:04:45
I mean, if you just look on TikTok, Instagram, you name it. Pork is such a versatile protein across cultural groups like Korea, for example, a major consumer of fresh pork. And if you see how they're serving it, I mean, you go to a Korean restaurant and you can have Korean barbecue, you can have, you know, a lot of times we get so in this zone, like I have to feed quote unquote kid-friendly foods. Well, kid-friendly foods are any food, right? It's just how you serve it. And sometimes it's not what you serve, it's how you serve it.
So, for example, with my kids, like sometimes they have these fun little poker sticks that they use in their lunchbox. So it's not necessarily what you're serving, but it's how you're serving it. And that makes food more exciting and kids like food that's exciting to them. And I think pork, because of all the versatility, you can serve it in different ways, whether it's shredded or chopped or part of a stir fry or a loaf or meatball or whatever it might be. And that just allows them to get those exposures.
0:06:09
And we know that kids need about 15 exposures to fully accept a food. And so it's an opportunity for parents to take something like pork, which is more on a value protein as well, that you can start to swap in, right? So if you're used to making spaghetti with ground beef, I always suggest with parents, before you take the like full switch, maybe all the way to pork, just like with whole grains, right?
1
0:06:36
You do half and half, and it's a great way to transition and support kids, but also being more mindful about the dollar and the nutritional value too. So you can do like a half ground beef, half pork spaghetti sauce, just like you would do with the pasta, right? If you want them to eat more whole grain pasta, you can't switch from white pasta to whole wheat because kids freak out. It tastes very different. But if you do a half white pasta and a half whole wheat together, they don't notice the difference and that allows them to taste and feel the texture difference. Same with pork. If they aren't used to it, you can expose them in different ways. And it's a great opportunity that they can understand in their palate. And then they accept the flavors and then you can serve it in a different way next time.
Casey
I think you brought up a good point. I don't have a picky eater and then I go visit my nephews and I'm like, oh gosh, they're picky eaters. But I think it's because he was the only child, we didn't cook special meals for him. So we exposed him to a lot of different foods and different ways.
Kristen
0:07:40
Great, well, and so, again, I give workshops to schools fairly often on how to support your small kids. So I'm talking like toddler, babies, toddlers, all the way up to early elementary years. So when you think about a plate or a bowl or whatever, whatever you're gonna be serving them, you wanna have at least a quarter of it in something new. You want to have at least one quarter of something they love. So whether they love applesauce or whatever they love, always have a quarter of the plate on something they love. 50% maybe you're not sure, they've had it before, they maybe liked it, and then a quarter is something new. And that's a great way that you're not forcing them to eat it, but you're giving them an opportunity to try it. And without that pressure, that allows them to try something and then they're like, oh, I really like it or maybe I don't like it. And I think then it's our role too as parents of let's take that information and improve it for the next time.
0:08:45
So maybe they said, oh, I really like that texture or I really like that seasoning. Okay, well, if you like the seasoning but you don't like the texture, maybe I can use the seasoning in a roast. Or maybe I can use the seasoning in a pork chop versus a ground if you didn't like that really kind of more mushier texture. And I'm a dietician, I'm a scientist, so obviously I have a research analysis of how I can improve. But I think it's an opportunity for parents to know that it's not always an uphill battle but it's a progression of how they can slowly offer and change up the offer to get their kids to like more variety cuisines because it's never gonna happen on the first time.
Morgan
Can you elaborate a little bit more on just the language and how we talk to our kids about trying new things? Like are there certain key words that we should include in the questions that we ask or how we ask the questions, how we encourage them to try different things that they've never had before, even if they just look at it and said, I don't like that before they've even tried it.
Kristen
0:09:54
Morgan, you're asking the million dollar question. Doesn't every parent want this answer? I think a lot of it goes into number one, you being a role model. If you're not eating it, then they're not eating it because they see that you're adverse to it. And so like, why are they gonna try it if you're adverse to it? Because you're their role model, right?
0:10:15
You're their number one. So I think that's step one before you even get to it, right? Because we eat with our eyes, but then we also eat with our mouth, our nose, our ears. We eat with all of our senses. And so that's the first thing. The second thing is we also eat with our eyes, right? So what does it look like?
10:10:32
And talk to them. What does this look like? What does it sound like? What are things that are unique to it? And I think talking about just that verbiage, allow them to use their language that they have and obviously that's different for a two and three year old. You can talk about some of that language like crunchy or savory or chewy and then they may be receptive to those things. And then lastly with their palate it's like what do you like? Do you taste the sweetness in the barbecue sauce on the ribs? Right? Do you like the the crunch of the skin potentially or whatever it might be? And so I think just using different words just like talking with them exactly how you're experiencing it. And you can also be fun. Like sometimes I do it with my kids like, okay, let's separate out the colors and then let's eat one bite of each color or, you know, putting the olives on your fingers and then eating the olives. One of the other things that we love to do, again, it's just like being fun, is when we're eating broccoli, like I do a lot of steamed broccoli because it's easy it's cheap it's convenient so I'll be like okay as soon as you bite the tree the birds fly out and I pretend that I'm like diving and the birds are flying past me and so they'll eat the broccoli as fast as they can and then I like pretend like I'm diving left and right and then the birds are flying out the trees or like do you hear the birds you know so I think it's being playful and don't necessarily, it's hard as a mom, right? Especially if you're time crunched for dinner, but also know that you would not like to be pressured at every meal with every eating experience. So always put yourself in their shoes that like you don't have to pressure them. Sometimes you do. Sometimes I'm like, okay, if we eat dinner, we're getting popsicles tonight. Like, okay, I'm not perfect. It's hard. Sometimes I'm like you just have to eat it because you haven't eaten anything but candy all day today and I need you to eat real food, but I think sometimes it's like, hey, I'm proud of you for trying that like that was really weird and you did a good job trying it. Even if you don't like it, I was proud that you tried it.
Casey
I was going to say the story I made up with Arthur when he was younger and I swear I want to write a children's book about him. But it was Chicken Bones, the Crocodile. And he loved to bite on the plastic spoons because it reminded him of chicken bones, but he can't eat chicken bones anymore because it's just not good for his mouth. It was getting stuck in his teeth and stuff. And that is the story that I told Arthur all the time, like you said, to make it fun to get him to eat. Like, you gotta chomp on that plastic spoon.
Kristen
Exactly, well, and kids love that. And they love just having that enjoyment piece. And that's what I was saying. Like, it's how you're serving it. It's always having a win for them on their plate. If they see that they always have one food they love, even if they eat it first every time, that goes to show that like, then at the end of the meal, you said, hey, you did a good job. Like, even if you didn't eat the whole thing at least you have a positive just like us as adults right if I'm setting a goal like here's January 1st and I want to get healthier if people always said what I was doing wrong would I be motivated to do better? Absolutely not I would lose all my confidence and kids are a great way to do that and I think pork is a perfect vehicle because of its versatility is like I can serve it in so many different ways and I can serve it with different sauces, I can serve it across different cultural cuisines or in familiar foods, I can serve pork.
0:14:14
And I think that's a great way to get that exposure. And then once they taste it and they feel all the flavor nuances in there, right? Like we know pork has over 110 flavor nuances. And so when they start to accept and adopt those flavors, it's important early on, and then that will help as they get older and it's not a battle. We know from the research that food exposures happen in utero. People, babies in utero start to develop taste sensations, right? And taste flavors. And so I think as a parent, knowing that like every time that we serve food is an opportunity. It doesn't mean we have to be perfect every time. It means every time is an opportunity. So sometimes you'll have a win and sometimes you won't, and that's perfectly okay. Right? And so like if you're serving pork, you may need to serve it 16 times, 16 different ways. But eventually that palate is starting to recognize the flavors and adopt those flavors. And so, yeah, just being, I think as a mom, and I'm speaking to other moms who might be listening, like give yourself some grace. Know that it's not going to be perfect. They're not going to love the food every time. It's that exposure, but always give them a win and celebrate any wins that they do, even if it's just a lick of whatever it might be.
Morgan
0:15:39
Can you elaborate a little bit more? You use the word versatile, how versatile pork is and the different forms that you can serve it, but can you also talk about just the nutrient profile of pork and how it is so versatile in that aspect as well?
Kristen
Yeah, so like I said, pork is versatile and you can have chops, roast, cuts, grinds, I mean, you name it. But then nutritionally, we know that pork delivers 10 key nutrients. And so pork is not just protein. And I think a lot of people think of protein and fat. Well, the pork has gotten 27% leaner and saturated fat than it was 30 years ago. So the farmers have been working really hard, the producers have been working really hard the producers have been working really hard to improve the leanness of the protein and that's why you see eight lean cuts now of fresh pork three being American Heart Association certified so if lean cuts is important to you and your family pork's got it right you can do you can do chops you can do tenderloin you can do the loin those are great ways to be lean and be part of your family. But we also know the cultural context too, right? And so if families want to adopt different cultural cuisines, let's say Korean or South American or Hispanic, then you can have those traditional cultural foods.
0:17:04
Like one of the ideas that comes to mind is like a tacos El Paso, right? And so you get that high quality protein, but then you get a lot of nutrients and some of these key nutrients that are important for growth and development, right? So we have choline, selenium, zinc, iron, these are nutrients that are going to be critical to growth and development. There's been research, recent research actually out that shows meat, in particular pork, as part of a dietary pattern can improve the neurodevelopment in infants who are complementary eating. And so I think that research is again, continuing to show that pork can be a protein choice and a food choice across the lifespan. But yeah, I think people just don't... Obviously I can dive super deep into nutrition because I love the nutritional value, but I think the bigger picture is that all these nutrients play different roles in the body, right? And that's why it goes back to like the three cornerstones of nutrition, which is balance, variety, and moderation. So all foods fit in that situation, right? All foods fit. And pork is one of those all foods fit. It doesn't mean we have to stigmatize and not eat pork. Whether that's bacon or that's a lean cut like your pork tenderloin, all foods can fit. It's just in balanced variety and moderation. And so I think pork is delivering, yes, that protein, but then all these other nutrients and it can fit across breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, however you want to serve it in your family. I'm going to switch us to a very controversial topic.
Casey
Yay. I'm all about a variety of food and as a nutritionist I don't get very anti when nutrition I want you to have vegetables on your plate and there's always a debate in our industry I'm a meat and potatoes type guy and I'm like okay but I would like you to have some greens and maybe some carrots and different things on your plate too as a you know a nutritionist from the animal side going on the human but what are your thoughts on plant-based meats in that conversation? Because I'm all for people eating vegetables and if you want to get protein from plants, please go ahead. I'm not anti that, right? Because I'm the variety that you talk about in moderation. What is your thoughts on plant-based meat?
Kristen
So, before I dive a little deeper into that, I'll say that we have research to show that pork is one of the ultimate carrier foods. And what I mean by that is when pork is on the plate, it can almost be that flavor vehicle to drive people to eat more foods that we want them to eat. We want them to eat more fruits. We want them to eat vegetables. We want them to eat whole grains. That is a great thing, but pork can be that flavor that gets people to eat it. A prime example I think about is Brussels sprouts, right? Well, most people eat Brussels sprouts on their own. Yeah, it's probably 50-50, maybe 20-.
Morgan
0:20:08
Only with bacon on top.
Kristen
0:20:10
Exactly, right? So now you're adding this protein, this flavor vehicle, and it gets people to eat the foods that we want. And so this research is showing when you are looking at poor consumers versus non-consumers, poor consumers actually have higher intakes of different food groups like fruits and vegetables and key nutrients, right? Things that we want them to eat more of. So I will say that first, that I think when you think about pork, think of it like, okay, I'm grilling ribs, well, let me add some grilled vegetables or grilled pineapple. And so pork is that delivery driver to then increase consumption of other fruits and vegetables. So it can be a win-win. You can embrace the foods that people love and also get them to eat more fruits and vegetables. Now, with plant-based proteins, I think it's a mixed bag, but what we do know is that pork is a wholesome food source of protein. And when you're looking at a lot of these plant-based products, they have a 15 plus label ingredient. And if that's not important to you, then that's fine. There's a thing for everyone. But I think if we go back to the basics, we've been eating animal protein for decades, centuries. And I think we can embrace that. We've improved the quality of the proteins. And so they're delivering the protein, but then all the micronutrients. We don't necessarily need plant-based proteins. But if you look at a comparator between how much protein I'm going to rise and shine. And so ultimately it's up to each individual person what foods they want to add as part of their dietary pattern. And I'm going to leave that to them. But what I am going to tell them is that pork can be that critical protein deliverer, but it can also be those nutrients and the flavor. We eat food because we love taste of food. So while you might want to eat a different product that maybe has quote unquote better nutritional value, which I sometimes disagree with, if that statement is necessarily true, is it the flavor of, does that make you want to eat it again? Probably not. But what does pork do? Pork makes you want to eat again. You can have those savory savory grilled barbecue pork ribs that are absolutely mouthwatering and delicious, adding some fresh grilled pineapple on there, maybe some corn. And is that going to make you want to come back?
Morgan0:23:02
Absolutely.
Kristen
0:23:03
Am I going to want to come back and eat that again? Now am I going to want a plant-based burger and am I going to go back to the restaurant saying, yeah, I really want that burger again? Maybe for some people, but probably not for most people because maybe it's missing on that flavor driver. So let's embrace the flavor and pork has the flavor, right? Pork is super flavorful with over 110 flavor nuances and it also pairs really well, right? You can pair with any fruit, vegetable, whole grain that you want. And I think that's where winds of let's stop stigmatizing food and let's show that pork can be that perfect protein and that nutritional delivery, but then you also get to eat the foods you want. And I think people are going to be more receptive to eating those foods if they're like, wow, you care about the flavor and you don't just want like a bland salad, right? So hopefully that convinces you.
Caseu
I'm just glad that I've had my lunch already.
Kristen
This would be all I have. I'm starving and I'm also making, I take pride in it because I'm the pork person in our family. I grew up in a meat and potatoes house that my mom cooks the crap on, pork chops, and sometimes I can't eat them because there's no juicy flavorfulness there. But whenever, like, for example, this next week with Easter, I said, I'm making ham.
Morgan
So I, I pride myself on being able to show my family how, the different ways we can make pork, as well as like when I do make it, I'm like, okay, I'm going to make sure this is going to taste really, really good so that it makes people want to eat more.
Kristen
Morgan, you know, that's a great point. I think that's one of the things that we're trying to explore and do a better job of as we're continuing to show people the flavor. Because if you've had pork cooked well, like cooked done correctly, it is so flavorful and delicious, right? that middle of the center pink, 145 tenths, it is flavor and juicy. But a lot of times we have this misconception that it has to be cooked all the way through. And I think I could go on a whole another podcast to talk about where we maybe went wrong or maybe where we could improve on the language. But I think because pork has gotten so lean, we can embrace some of these different cooking appliances and techniques. So we just had a study come out the other day that talked about air for our pork chops, and it produced one of the most flavorful, tender pork out of all the other preparation methods. And so if I'm thinking about a mom in a pinch, trying some of these cooking appliances and really it's an art, right? Just as people probably learned years ago when they started to cook beef, like it's an art or chicken, you can overcook any meat. And is the flavor there? Not really. And so I think people when they're trying out pork, like try it out and making sure that if you don't have a great experience one time, that doesn't mean it's not a good protein. Maybe it just wasn't cooked the best way. And so you can always try different ways. And that's why I think ground pork is a great kind of segue to getting people into that pork flavor because you can't really overcook ground pork and it's a great way to start to like the flavor. And if you like the flavor, then you can go to the chops, the roast, the carnitas, the ribs, so on and so forth.
Casey
0:26:39
Yeah. I would say this is the really sad part about growing up on a hog farm, being a swine nutritionist that I hate to order a pork chop at restaurants because even though we've changed our food safety recommendations, it's most times out of all the meats I've had, not chicken can be too, definitely chicken, but overcooked, right? And I think that is the one piece of information that we need to get out to people is that 145, we don't need it to be shoe leather.
Kristen
Oh, Casey, I literally just had a pork chop. And I, you know, I just had a pork chop. I ordered a restaurant the other day and I told the chef, I said, look, you overcooked the pork chop. It was delicious, but you overcooked it. It cooks to 145. I even wrote in their Google reviews because I'm like, we have to do better, right? And, but I think a lot of it is just education and it's across the board. I mean, a great example were eggs, right? Eggs were demonized for years. All the egg yolks and that it's gonna hurt your heart health and all this thing. It took them 20 plus years, probably 30 plus years to change that conversation and now you see eggs on the menu. Do you remember for a long time that it was like egg white served with everything? Yeah.
0:28:02
And you're like, oh my God, you're missing the main nutritional part of the egg in the yolk and it killed me on the inside. So I think pork has the opportunity to tell our nutrition story. And that's what Emily and I are working our butts off with our comms and everyone at the pork board. We have state groups, we have other industry leaders of talking about the pork nutrition story and Cooking Temp is just one of those and I think the more we can talk about it the more people understand the more they cook it right the more they enjoy it and the more they want it back on the plate.
Casey
Oh yeah you don't have to convince me to like pork. My challenge is I have a husband who is allergic to pork but we have good news he ate a little pork the other day and didn't have a reaction.
Morgan
Remember Casey we were talking about that too. I said sometimes it's a slow reintroduction sometimes it takes years and that's one of the things that we're trying to explore too that Alpha Gal and what is the role of pork? Yeah because he thought it was a hamburger so I thought it was beef but then he ate it and looked at the label and it was pork, chicken, and beef and I'm like he's like I didn't react I said oh yes pigs and pork chops.
Win, win.
Kristen
0:29:15
You're in the right direction. It's like the slow introduction. Maybe the 10 years or so has been enough, the 20 years.
Morgan
0:29:23
There you go. All right, I don't have any other questions.
Do you have any other questions, Casey?
Casey
0:29:27
No, I just thank you for being on. I think anybody listens to this is gonna order a pork chop. Hopefully, you know, maybe a bacon wrapped jalapeno or some brussel sprouts on the side to go with it. Sounds pretty yummy to me and a apple coleslaw salad.
Kristen
So oh it was so good yesterday. I I since you mentioned that I was like now that i'm thinking like as we've had this conversation i'm like You really can't pair pork with like because I mean i've cooked it with like well last night. I cooked it with asparagus.
Morgan
You know, you have Brussels sprouts and bacon, you have the apple slaw, and then I did some peach pork chop recipe before. Ham you always serve with pineapple. It's just amazing how many different things that you have available to us. So I think that's the action item we should leave with our audience is how are you going to incorporate pork into your meal planning over the next couple weeks or going into Easter or moving forward? And like I said, pork can be that carrier food, right? Like if you want your family to eat more fruits, vegetables, or whole grains, like pork can be that
Kristen
0:30:46
carrier to get them to do that, right? And so like if you're leaving Easter and you're like, what do I do with this ham? You can repurpose the hams in a ham, cheese, and veggie quiche. And so you can add it in to then carry and get them to eat more of those whole grains and veggies. So I wish you the best of luck. I think exposure is just going to be the critical key here. And exposure, give yourself a pat on the back. Like it's not always gonna be a win, but know that you're gonna try again. And just like if you don't have the best cooked pork chop, Casey, you're still gonna try it again, right? It doesn't mean you're not gonna eat pork chop again. It's just maybe it just isn't the best experience and that you can give it another shot. We do it with every food, right? You're never gonna knock off a food and never eat it again. I try to tell the waitress one, oh sorry I didn't mean to over talk, but I said, I tried to tell the waitress, 145, please tell the chef, 145. I don't want it well done.
Casey
0:31:45
Yep.
Kristen
0:31:46
I know it's sad, but you know, we're doing some stuff in the National Pork Board with the Culinary Institute of America to try and do some education and training and innovation with chefs.
So, but it's a learning experience. I think even with dieticians, like we have to teach them about pork and the more we can teach them, the more they talk about it and the more people experience it. Well, I know we all know that kids give us plenty of opportunities to feed them.
Morgan
Oh, yes. Oh, my God. That is an understatement. They eat every 15 minutes, I swear.
Kristen
0:32:22
Well, thanks so much for having me though. It was really fun and I hope everyone enjoyed it and learned a lot. And if you ever have any pork nutrition questions or want me to talk, definitely let me know because any way that we can voice what the powerful nutrition improvements that can be by consuming pork, I think it's exciting.
Morgan
0:32:43
Yes, thank you.
Kristen
0:32:44
We really appreciate you guys joining us and look forward to seeing how we can collaborate with the National Pork Board moving forward. Yeah, sounds good. Well, thanks so much, y'all.